Sam has always treated me very well!!! I would b
uy from him again in a sec. He goes the extra mile! Eric
David Samuels <david.samuels@No-Spam> wrote:
Friday, April 11, 2003
Dave Samuels
Celestron NexStar 11 GPS
In December, 2002, I bought a NexStar 11 GPS from Charles at ScopeCity in San Francisco. It rained for about two weeks solid and I couldn't really get it out to test it until after the Scope City return policy had expired.
After fussing around with the NexStar for about a month, I spoke to Sam Sweis, the manager at ScopeCity SF, about my displeasure with the NexStar as a scope that I would be able to use for astrophotography purposes. So, Sam allowed me to trade my NexStar 11 GPS up to a Meade LX200 GPS 12" w/ UHTC. Of course I paid the difference but I could hardly believe that Sam would do such a thing for me. (There are several reasons why I believe that the Meade is a better product than the NexStar for my purposes. If you are interested, I can fill you in on "my" product comparison opinions in another letter.)
Anyway, Scope City was sold out of the 12" Meade's. So Sam ordered one for me. He said that Meade had been taking about 30 days to fill the orders, but he'd try to pull some strings for me and get it in sooner. If memory serves me correctly, it came in at about the two-week mark. Good going Sam!
Meade LX200 GPS 12" #1 - First Light
Jan 17, 2003, I drove home with the scope and tested it that night for about a few hours before it started raining. However, the scope didn't seem to GOTO correctly. The GPS worked ok with 'location' but it couldn't GOTO anything within about 50-300 arcminutes of accuracy. The specs called for 2 arcminute GOTO precision.... way different than I was getting. (Since earlier this year, Meade specifies 1 arcmin GOTO accuracy (http://www.meade.com/catalog/lx/12_lx200gps.html), Prior to that, it was spec'd at 2 arcmin. Be sure to get one of the newer ones.)
I fussed around with it for weeks, whenever the sky was clear. I went to star parties and compared it with a friends Meade LX200GPS 10". I learned that you are really supposed to TRAIN DRIVES and also CALIBRATE SENSORS before really trying to use the scope and expect any kind of pointing accuracy. The whole time I was having these problems, in the back of my mind there was room that I was doing something wrong. So I kept trying. I started to keep a log of my observing sessions an pointing precision errors. I also found that if you choose HIGH PRECISION MODE, I was almost able to find some dark galaxies. But it was a lot of work. (Other problems arise when using High Precision Mode; like you can't use the SEARCH SPIRAL mode... all it does is go back to the alignment start instead of search spiral mode... stuff like that).
After showing Sam my observing logs and the lack of precision I was getting, he said that he'd take care of me, no matter what. Meade and Scope City offered several suggestions about how to test the scope to see if we could determine what the problem was. So, I did those tests and couldn't determine any kind of consistency. One very clear night in March, while observing with a friend and his LX90 8", my scope just wouldn't even align itself. It was stuck during the alignment phase. It was throwing PROC. TRAP 2 exceptions and all sorts of problems. (The LX90 advertises 5 arcmin precision. I was using it to help me find things in the sky and then I'd slew my expensive 12" manually to the location). There were other problems related to tracking and jumping during slow speed slews and tracking. Although you except 'minor' shift while focusing with the primary mirror, I was experiencing excessive focus shift in addition to the other problems.
So, after talking to Sam and Meade, we determined to send the unit back to Meade. At the expense of Meade, they sent a delivery truck to my house to pick up the scope for repair. Meade was determined that the electronics were messed up somehow, the drive encoders were messed up (causing the GOTO problems), and etc. Sam said that he'd pull those strings again if he could... not promising anything, but he'd try to get the scope put in the front of the line. Meade was suggesting that the normal turnaround was about 30 days.
Well, including a shipping snafu on the part of the trucking company, the scope was returned to me in 14 days. Good going Sam and Meade! I anxiously mounted the scope in the living room during the daytime and trained the drives. Everything seemed ok. The electronics were upgraded to 1.5c firmware version, etc. They had cleaned the dew spots on the corrector plate, polished off some tape I had on the body from my Rigel QuikFinder and things were looking good.
Meade LX200 GPS 12" #1-repaired - First Light
When it got dark, I took the scope out to the driveway to give the GOTO system a test. The alignment went smoothly. (I don't expect the alignment stars to be very close during alignment because I have never seen them very close... the first alignment star was about 1.5 optical tube assembly widths away).
I CALBIRATE SENSORS, power down, and align again. A little better this time. (the CALIBRATE SENSORS step points the scope at the North Star (Polaris) and asks you to center it in your eyepiece. Based on the amount you have to move the scope to center it, an accurate measure of your magnetic deviation, elevation, and level can be compensated for in its software). The alignment stars were Capella and Kocab. After alignment, I had the scope slew back and forth between them. They were way off... between 5-30 arcmins and getting worse with each GOTO. GOTO Jupiter was even worse... off by about nine degrees. GOTO Polaris... way off!... The GOTO problems were still there!
I called Meade customer service the following day and they suggested some tests, which I tried that evening. One of the tests I performed was a LANDMARK test by aiming at a house across the street and check if it would GOTO that LANDMARK every time (the old scope couldn't do that). The AZ drive was off but the ALT drive was off more each time I tried it. It seemed that the newly repaired scope still couldn't point within spec. So, I called Meade again and they issued an RPL (replacement) number. This time they were pretty sure that it was an Opto/mechanical alignment problem... probably caused by shipping. (Looking back, this might have been the original problem too, although all the alignment stuff is performed and checked when you send in for repair) When the scope came back to me through the trucking company the outer box was damaged and I pointed this out to the shipping company. But they said it was a screw on the side of the truck that snagged the box, not caused by dropping it or collision w
ith anything. NEVER ACCEPT A TELESCOPE WITH A DAMAGED BOX. Meade should put damage shock sensors on their boxes when they ship their large telescopes. Neither Celestron, nor Meade use shipping shock sensors. Even if they can test and certify the scope before it ships, how are we to know that it really passed the tests or that someone just signed it off in a hurry? Where is the documented evidence that it passed within what tolerances? Do they adhere to the "Good Manufacturing Practices" specification? If they are going to blame shipping without using shock sensors, a friend suggested that maybe we shouldn't by telescopes from Meade until they figure out how to ship them without damage during shipment. What do you think? Besides, the mirror was not locked and the focus was not turned all the way to one end when shipped - as they require us to do in the manual.
When Meade told me they wanted to replace my scope, at their expense, I started to worry about their ability to be able to test a scope before it ships. After all, they can't really take out all the scopes and star test them, can they? Could they, perhaps, make an artificial sky and test them there? It would be a very large building since the 12" and 16" scopes have a minimum focusing distance of over 80 feet. On a non-GPS unit, they could have it point to something on the horizon... but without overriding the GPS, they'd need an artificial sky or something.
Sam put me in touch with someone high up in the Meade hierarchy. I spoke with him and he assured me that they do have a way of testing these units and that he can vouch for the fact that their "process" does work. He said they have an artificial sky and that each scope is tested with it. (I still have a hard time believing this. Does anyone know the facts surrounding this?) He said that a lot of other testing is done as well to assure quality before shipment. All that goes out testing is invalidated as soon as it is bumped in shipping though.
I RECOMMEND SCOPECITY, SF
Well, he didn't have to do it, but Sam offered to trade me scopes. Even though it is not a Scope City policy to do this, Sam made a special consideration for me in this case. Partly because he treats locals - of the bay area - kind of as family. He happened to have one 12" GPS with UHTC, like mine that had just come in. He'd take my bad one and the RPL number and give me his. I checked with Meade to see if it was ok with them and they made some changes to the address on the RPL order and it was taken care of. I drove to ScopeCity the next day, and there was a 12" in an unopened box right by the door of the showroom waiting for me. I don't know where you'd find a retailer like Sam Sweis anywhere in this world today, but I'd recommend purchasing from him and ScopeCity. In fact, I am personally inclined to pay a few more bucks and purchase accessories from him than purchase them elsewhere on the Internet. While I was without my scopes, he even offered to give me a "loaner" 10 inch GPS. He didn't have
to do that.
As far as buying a 12" scope versus a 10" scope versus a Celestron 11" or 14", I do have opinions that I might put in a comparison table soon and post it. It would be nice to have been able to look at an objective table of features, etc, before I bought my Celestron prior to trading up to a Meade. I don't believe that it is entirely possible because people have different goals for their scopes and different types of viewing. I was looking for something I could do serious astrophotography with within a year of purchasing the scope. (the delay is due to the budget and price of CCD's, wedges, guiders, heaters, etc.)
Incidentally, don't even think of getting a scope this large without the following accessories:
1. Carry case. You are supposed to transport the scope with the RA/DEC brakes UNLOCKED and it wobbles all over the place while you are carrying it... Just get a case. I got the cheaper soft case (about $200). The JMI hard case is $300 more but it has wheels built in.
2. Dew removal/prevention system like the Kendrix (Even one night of viewing will start to accumulate small dew spots that will accumulate over time.
3. Dew shield. I made mine with about $8 of plastic from TapPlastics and some duct tape. It should extend at least 1/5 times the diameter of the scope. Don't forget to account for at least 6 inches of length to overlap the tube enough to stay on firmly without vibration in the wind, etc. You also don't want it to sag. Leave enough diameter to deal with the Kendrix heating system.
4. Battery Power. Because you are going to use the dew heaters (2.75 amphours for the 12", less for smaller scopes), you're going to need some serious battery power. There are lots of articles about this. Consider getting enough battery power for all the gizmos and possibly a laptop. If the laptop battery fails, you'll have a backup for it. Some people recommend heaters for the laptop... hence, even more battery power. It adds up quickly. Even if you are just running the scope and the heaters, you are at about 4 amphours. A 13 amphour battery could only sustain that load for less than 2 hours. A typical night out for me is about 8 to 12 hours. Anyway, get battery power... remember to consider portability. A large 1000 amp battery might be too heavy for you. Get one that won't leak if it tips in the back of your car.
5. Some kind of luggage cart for your scope.... wheels! This scope body weighs in at over 70lbs... some say closer to 80. If you haul it in/out of your car to/from the house, you'll want to do that in the case... adds another 30 or so pounds. I'm a strong guy but this thing is so big, it is too awkward to move consistently without risking bumping it on something or tripping... you got my meaning?
6. A/C Adapter. Meade does not come with one. You can fill the fork arms with 8 C-cell batteries (at the cost of the extra weight of the batteries - isn't this scope heavy enough as it is?) and it will run about 20 hours on those. But you will eventually need power for heaters, autoguiders, laptop, etc.
Optional Necessities
7. You should have a cross-hair eyepiece, probably 12mm, for accurate alignment. Might be a good idea to get one that can later be used for guiding.
8. Caps. Get some caps for your diagonals, etc to keep the dust and dew out of your system. Meade doesn't provide covers for all the things that have openings. A little trick I found is that 35mm film cases fits nicely into a 1.25" hole. (check out www.ScopeStuff.com. They sell inexpensive caps for all scope 'orifices')
9. I think it is a good idea to put a clear filter on the back of the scope to keep dust out of the tube.
All these accessories are carried by Scope City and usually in stock.
Eric Ayres
37.62N 122.10W, William Optics GT-1, Celestron C8, LOMO 133.5, MX-916.
And yes a Discovery 10" Dob.....
http://eayres.darkhorizons.org
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